Great article ! I am half way through an Ableton course, and I have been a DJ for a few years but I INSTANTLY noticed what you said about losing the innocence of listening to music as one piece of sound...Now I can't refrain myself from analyse and cutting out pieces of what I hear, and me too, I miss my innocence...

Loss of innocence? Careful. What's really happening is that you're starting to see sound like a sequencer.

...But the sequencer is obfuscating what's going on with an overly simplistic paradigm. In reality House/ techno music is both ridiculously simple and impossibly complex.

The movement of these tones, particularly the hard hitting tones, and where they end and flow into the next sound... this is called cadence. House and techno is ALL ABOUT CADENCE. A seemingly simple movement between a high hat and kick drum is actually an enormously complex event that we have difficulty perceiving fully and properly. It is also just two sounds one after another.

An example...

Take a really long kick sound. Put it on the 4s. Sounds flat yeah?
Now decrease the decay a bit till it bumps along.
Now add an HH. Adjust the attack, and most importantly the decay, so it locks into the kick drum.
The movement in tones, the call and response, the different kids of attack, the weight, the harmonic changes, the volume changes... all of these elements contribute to the character... and you'll notice different styles/producers learn on different cadences or different contrasts across cadences.

This is so, so true.

It blows my mind how so many people are trying to get the "Skrillex sound" or (a few years ago) the "Justice sound" etc etc. I've seen YouTube videos where producers have recreated Deadmau5 and Prodigy tracks sample by sample (and in their defence they're pretty good). But I've never understand why they would spend so much time doing this rather than trying to find their own sound.

I guess there's an educational aspect to it, and there's nothing wrong with appropriation in the right circumstances but I'd rather spend my time in the studio thrashing the shit out of a synth and sampler to find my own sound than recreate someone elses.

Hi All,

I was the tutor on this course and it's great to read Hannah's account of it.

Just wanted to make a point to Dusky1983 and 1trickpony regarding their comments on going to college to learn music. I never went to college to learn electronic music but did study basic music theory and learnt how to play the guitar, some self-taught and some with the aid of lessons. My electronic music career has been without the aid of tutoring and I was lucky enough to have people around me that I could learn from, but not everyone has this. When I started it was with an Atari ST and Akai sampler and then later a MPC3000 and finally I moved onto Logic. Essentially with a DAW such as Logic you have a virtual recording studio at your fingertips, if you have no experience of this software previously then it can be pretty intimidating (hence my comment about what I started with which was a far simpler setup). Therefore taking a course to learn how to use this (at a reasonable price that does not have to means piles of debt) is a good option for many people.
I would never tell anyone that by taking these courses they will be able to make great music at the end of it or indeed have a career in it. All we are doing is opening things up a bit for people and hopefully giving them the knowledge & skills that will allow their creativity to flourish. Creativity cannot be taught but by improving one's skills then you stand a much better chance of translating what's in your head into a piece of music.

Like you I agree that it is a case of learning what you have inside out and this is something I tell students all the time - there's far too much choice in terms of plugins and software these days. It's also true that not everyone has to go to college to make great music. However I know myself that I could improve myself with more music theory knowledge or having taken a sound engineering course when I started out. Experience, originality, creative ideas and most of all practice and perseverance will all contribute to someone making great music however there is nothing wrong with a little study to help someone on their way, many of the students that taken courses at Pointblank will attest to this.

Thanks,

Alex

@ takovsky. emotive post, house / techno is not however impossibly complex now is it?

some of it is more complex than others but generally its pretty simple, but its the simpleness and the clean expression of musical ideas in these genres that appeals to people and make you wanna dance. Changing the parameters on 2 percussion hits so you like the sound on them is pretty simple. you just do it till you like what you get, its the ear and perception thats doing the complex stuff.

I really like deep complex detailed expressive music, but most house and techno aint it. Some is but most is not.

Great article

@ burnibus.

It's true to say that the music can be made in a simplistic manner, with simplistic aim, but that doesn't make the end result simplistic. I'd say those tracks which I find lacking are those where the relation between the sounds is not clearly thought out... ironically that time spent thinking produces the most hypnotic music. Thats the difference between a track that makes some degree of sense, and one that doesn't.

When thinking about EQ we are told to think linearly across the spectrum... but sound does not play out this way. Boosting the highs with an EQ on a kick drum will result in an increased level of the transient/attack phase, equally using a compressor to boost the attack will also result in a brightening effect. We must always consider that our sense of hearing is itself both time and event driven. I think a shift in the width of that window is what Hannah was describing in her loss of innocence. And that's my general point about the complexity of even basic sounds.

I'd argue that this inherently related to 'groove' or syncopation. The word syncopation originally meaning a brief loss of consciousness. I think a good techno track (or jazz piece) will concern itself with the nature of these rhythmic sub divisions. At least, that's what I try for in my own.

( soundcloud.com/zakwhiteley/plstc )

Actually, you can be taught to be a producer. Whether you'll become a good producer is a different story. Same goes for plumbing, carpentry, teaching, and engineering. Believe me that shitty carpenters aren't exactly raking it in either.

And regarding the dying industry part, I don't think that's relevant at all. There are lots of people who have taken courses in music production and went on to have a successful careers in music in the last few years.

So basically I don't agree with your assessment at all. I understand your argument that for some people, taking a course and dreaming of a career in music is a total pipe dream, but you can't write off everyone interested in doing so, and you can't write off the people offering these courses either.

definitely an interesting article, fair game to Hannah for trying, hope she sticks with it ...

when you lost in the flow of making a track there is very little can match that great feeling

excellent read!!! love it! you go, girl!

Thanks again 1trickpony. Cubase is being installed tonight and ill take it from there. On to by a MIDI Keyboard now. Again, its damn confusing where to start. Im gonna spend some time researching what I need but any advice on that for the best place to look would be wicked.

To all newbie producers be warned about taking these sorts of courses. You will not come out the other side a with all the necessary skills and knowledge to start producing tracks labels will want to sign.

What you will come out with is a basic understanding of how your chosen DAW works coupled with a very basic picture of how a electronic music track it put together. Now if thats what your after then by all means pay your course fee and carry on.

However if you want to make music then go out and learn music. Find out if you have what it takes to become a musician first. Your money will be better spent on a musical instrument and some lessons. Understand music theory, learn how to read, write and play music. Listen to every style of music you can lay you hands on and then pull it apart and see what makes it tick.

Then once you have become a proficient musician open up your DAW. You wont even need to know what a compressor does! You will be light years ahead of those people that took the pointblank course who are more then likely still trying to figure out how to automate there one fingered bass line!

Oh by the way if you would like to learn how to become a top musician in just 12 weeks then check out my website at www.becomearealmusician.com - We even have a 10 min video of Sasha who mentions the product "Mixed in Key" 16 times in the first 5 minutes. Give me a break!

I used to work with the tutor, Alex, in Gap way back when! ha!

very interesting stuff

Very interesting article, really enjoyed reading that. I have no musical training - I still don't know the scales and don't even consider musical key when I'm working. I've blagged my way through it all for a long time and still somehow I get away with it. I taught myself the majority of what I know but definitely picked up tips along the way from everyone I worked with. Just seeing how someone else works can help you learn. Some people are naturals who need a bit of a helping hand, many are not and those are the ones who tend to need extra training and assistance to get to where they want to be.

I've taught probably over a thousand people over the years and I have seen it time after time - in a class of ten there are about 2 naturals, the rest are needing lots of learning, like LOTS. I don't know if any of you have read Bob Lefsetz's stuff but recently he's been harking on about this 10000 hours thing. Basically he says you mature when you've practiced your craft for over 10000 hours. In some respects I'd agree but maybe not such a large amount. Those 'naturals' in the class may well have relentlessly studied on their own to get to the level they are at or have had some help from a parent/mentor.

If you want to do this music production thing you need to work EXTREMELY hard to get to a good level. In my younger years I learnt my craft when friends were going out, I practically became a recluse in order to learn how to do what I wanted to do. I worked through the night, through the day, relentlessly and gave up relationships if people couldn't understand. Much of it didn't click into place because no-one was there to help me. I swear if I had access to the type of information that is available now back when I started that I'd be a millionaire by now! Even those who are naturals need to know something though, there's always something to learn - I'm still learning for sure and I know a hell of a lot about music production already.

If I had the money and was in a position now where I wanted to get an advantage over the competition I'd definitely do a selection of courses, a diverse range of contrasts to broaden my experience and knowledge, possibly even from a selection of different recommended colleges. Having an experienced person on hand to ask for advice is important. That's why many people turn to forums or social media these days. BUT the problem with forums and social media is that often people who think they know everything don't and have learnt it from going on forums themselves. You need a trusted source of knowledge and experience and that's where a college can help.

Interesting read Good Stuff!!!

Exactly!! Time time and more time. I know people who think a 12 week course will ''make the magic happen''. Generally it won't but this was a very good read and the writer should be proud of her final track.

The people I know who've released the most music and had the most success are the ones that eat, sleep and drink electronic music. Give it all or give nothing!

I'm sorry but what does that even mean?

No wonder it's difficult for people who want to learn how to make electronic music, or art of any form for that matter, when jargon such as this is regurgitated.

It's frankly irrelevant, and unnecessary. I find it really annoying, a form of intellectual masturbation if you will.

It's as simple, or as complex, as you make it.

In the end, nobody cares how it's made, it's how it sounds and how it makes you feel that counts...

Wasn't that Malcolm Gladwell in 'Outliers'?

In Outliers, Gladwell states that it takes 10,000 hours to become world class at your pursuit, not just 'mature', which maybe means your translation of the high amount of hours quoted is due to a misunderstanding?

Looking back, I must be closing in on 10,000....I used to teach 30hours a week every week for a year...not to mention studio sessions outside of classes and my own writing...wow, no wonder I'm so pale!

@ tarkovsky

Im not saying there isnt alot to consider when making music, but saying something is impossibly complex is a bit much, especially when its beat driven tribalmusic.

@Paul nolan, i agree that it can sound like intellectual masterbation, but ultimately thats all talking about music is. We chat about it and we discuss how its made or how it makes us feel or the brilliance of the musician but all of that is completely useless and brings us no closer to an understanding of the music itself, or the emotional impat of the music. Its like using french to describe japanese.

Also i agree that its the emotion and how it sounds that counts, everything else is secondary, but to say nobody cares how its made is a bit daft, as dont you teach people to make it? surely all of your clients care how its made, as do you, enough to teach people how to make it and to earn a living from it?

@paulnolan - You're being a dick. If I simplify my point for you, it will loose a lot its meaning and you'll tell me I was deliberately . If I don't simplify it, you can accuse me of a lack of meaning in the first instance.

Where's the benefit of the doubt?

Instead of being snotty why don't you go back and read exactly what I was responding to? The question raised by the article was a pretty complicated one; to paraphrase - at what point does a knowledge of the methodology of the production of electronic effect our perception of it.

@burnibus - I guess I really think you can... even basic sound is massively complex and I'd say that is why minimal music works.

@tarkovsky I know what you are saying, yes all music is complex in its way. The way that the ear and the brain interacts with and responds to sound is also complex. Just not impossibly so. Minimal music, when done well (steve reich, rob hood etc) is an exploration into how we interpret sound in relation to time, and variation of repetition. It is very simple but very effective music and it has a complex effect on us i agree.

I was just thinking that in relation to other styles of music, techno and house etc isn't by any means the most complex or intricate in comparison to classical pieces composed for 50 strong orchestras or even other electronic music such as Richard devine, autechre etc....

The best techno music balances the fine line between complete introverted complexity like some of the music i mentioned above, and the driving functional tribal sounds that awaken the ancient urge to get up and boogy. too much either way and it can seem a bit empty.

No need to call anyone a dick though

Agreed on the first half.

However Considering this pretty barbed statement-

"It's frankly irrelevant, and unnecessary. I find it really annoying, a form of intellectual masturbation if you will."

I think it was a moderated and fair response. I'm just being a bit more economical with my words and shit... if I want to call someone a wanker, I'll call them that.

...In this case what I meant was that the postee wasn't being terribly nice, but somehow, written, that looks like a bitchy/sardonic/aloof statement. I feel it's better to go with putting things out in the open.

Will definitely read this article! Seems to be quite interesting!

Paul nolan - A man not afraid to love the sound of this own opinion.

Tarkovsky - "...But the sequencer is obfuscating what's going on with an overly simplistic paradigm. In reality House/ techno music is both ridiculously simple and impossibly complex." - The man who made fun music sound lammmmmme.

I am confident in saying 97% of the people reading this discussion have not read either your laboriously over long messages on here.

Good to hear from Hannah's tutor in here though! Hmmm, now I'm a long message wank. Balls.

Lame... yeah that I can't deny.

It's barbed for a reason mate - just be clear and concise with your words, so everyone can understand, so you get to the point for everyone's benefit, rather than just coming across as aloof and overly intellectual. It's a major and unnecessary barrier to those reading the thread and wanting to learn.

The message is more important than anything, so make sure it is broadcast in the clearest sense.

(you learn this while teaching people...)

As the old adage goes in my neighbourhood 'everyone loves a wank, but nobody likes a wanker'

As for loving the sound of my own opinion, well, it is mine after all, and hating your own opinions doesn't get you anywhere in life, so I suppose there's an element of truth to it.

but hey, it's a forum, and we've all got more important things in life...don't we??

Well I guess the differences between you and I are that I don't presume to educate anyone other than myself, I don't presume that learning is necessarily hierarchical, and I don't presume people can't understand words like paradigm, obfuscating or cadence or that they don't have the gumption to just google it.
I spend a lot of time producing music and I have invested myself deeply, I apologise if the only way I can express is through language that you find unappealing. If you can find another way of efficiently restating what I wrote, I'm all ears.

Just to finish... you're telling me to clear and concise with what I'm saying, but chose to express a negative opinion of my post in a barbed manner.

If you'd have just said - hey don't you think you're over complicating this point here and here this could have been resolved in a more civil manner - but my feeling is that you're offended by the kind of language I use, that I've somehow trodden on your toes.

Well let me put it this way... I was pretty much up for a discussion or a debate, with people who I assumed would really generally know their shit (I have a fair bit of respect for RA) and instead I just get called a wanker.

You've got some gall just insulting me because you don't like the way I write. And do you teach like this?

If that's how you conduct yourself, I'd hate to be in your class - I'd be so afraid of stepping on your ego and getting put down.

A misunderstanding? haha, did you drink your grande cappuccino with an extra shot a bit too quick before posting? Relax, i'm sure everyone got the concept without it needing to be so pedantically specific.

Hey just trying to be clear and precise

and as for Tarkovsky, you need to stop being so over sensitive.

Talk about reading 'way' too much into some verbal sharpness...it's a messageboard mate, loosen up!

I rail against ego tripping in everything I do, especially in the studio and in the classroom (ask anyone I have taught or worked with) and if I have an opinion on something, i'm speaking on it.

It may be sharp, but it's sharp for a reason.

You may not like it, but thats down to your reaction, but that's what opinions are there fore, to be agreed and disagreed on...

"Opinions are like arseholes...everyone's got one"

sweet jesus, some people need to lighten up on here!

@Paulnolan, indeed maybe some people do need to lighten up a bit.

It doesnt distract from the fact however that from the get go you have pretty much used this thread to promote yourself and your services to everyone, trying to convince people that teaching is the best way to get the most out of their music production tools.

If this was just an opinion thats great but from you its a sales pitch, and maybe people dont necessarily need to be convinced to pay someone else to show them how a sequencer works.

I didnt necessarily agree with what takosky said but i engaged him in a conversation about it, to try and understand a bit more about his point of view. I would much rather talk about the inner workings of music making and people different approaches than hurl insults at each other.

Similarly i dont just disagree with someone because their outlook is not in line with my business model. There is maybe 1 post in this entire thread where you are not hawking for business, and trying to convince anyone who is reading that, the best way is your way.

but dont worry cos your way is adaptive and understanding and you are a great teacher and you can teach the world how to use music production tools and make peoples lives better and their music making experience more fun......For a fee. BTW did i mention my website? what i did? well here it is again.

Any questions just drop me a line, id be happy to help, as long as you seriously consider giving me some money to further my career.

Paul - I read too much into your verbal sharpness? What, like what you read into my comments?
What does it take to get you to admit that maybe you were being a bit rude?If you want to deflate the situation, how about saying "yeah sorry, I was a bit rude there - no real offence intended" instead telling me to ligthen up?

You also said that you think intellectual elements are a barrier to the music making process. Really? I'd say the opposite is true. Almost anyone can make music nowadays, and I think thats an inherently good thing. You don't need many skills at all and a lot of fantastic music has been made by layman who just stuck at what they were doing.

Sure people can deliberately make things over complicate... but can you really say that's what I was up to? I think it's an inherently complex question that deserves a complex answer.
But you didn't even engage with my argument. You just insulted me.
So if we're going to forget about all the bitchiness, do you actually have an opinion to express?

I totally identify with the feelings of technical and musical inadequacy and the temptation to just give up. I grew up as a classically trained trombone player, and when I quit private trombone lessons to become a teenage rock star, my parents encouraged me to get private tutoring in MIDI and studio production at some (short-lived, I think) joint called the Sam Ash Music Institute. I learned how to use samplers, sequencers, drum machines, and MOTU Performer on my Mac. I made tracks, wrote music, etc as a wide-eyed high school kid.

Fast forward 20 years of non-music-related life and I haven't much picked an instrument or turned on my keyboards in quite a few years. I get it in my head that I'm itching to make some mashups, so I dig into Ableton right off the bat. Boy, was that an unbelievably painful experience of basically pushing buttons until (if) I found the right one.

Oddly enough, once I got the technical part working and it all started to come back to me, I remembered that the really hard work is not just making music, but making great music. The raw frustration of hearing it in my head and not being able to make the computer do it was replaced by the psychic pain of hearing it in my headphones and knowing its just not good enough. Maybe I'll have the persistence to improve and master it, or maybe it was just a nice thought for a rainy day, only time will tell.

maybe you should get some sort of training??? as you seem to fit the bill immediately as those who would benefit, as there is nothing more frustrating that wanting to make music and not having the "technical ability" to articulate your ideas.

Instead of reading and hard work / practice which is free, maybe you should pay someone money to help you.

Paul nolan may be able to help you i hear he is a great teacher and flexible too.

Really good article, I think you've summed up stuff we've all been through with DJing and producing - including that moment when we realise we're never going to hear it with that same sense of wonder and innocence again! A splendid read

I've got to say, I dissect everything I listen to but it doesn't stop me enjoying the music if it's good.

Writing About Music is Like Dancing About Architecture



www.soundcloud.com/zoux

This post reminds me of the recent Ira Glass video.
vimeo.com/24715531
Overall, even though technique is important music tends to be more about emotion than perfection since, the desire to release whatever feelings reside inside themselves helps push people through their novice months or years.

Glungin,

Amazing message there from Ira Glass. Some encouragement when so much around is intimidating and discouraging.

Having just started this process myself
(and wishing I had started about 8years ago) I often get frustrated with my lack of ability to transfer the mental sounds onto the DAW.

We have to respect music when we are trying to make it. You wouldn't just walk onto a football pitch and expect to waltz past other footballers who have been playing for 10 years longer than yourself (and have trained for longer). This is the same in all professions.

So why is it that we want to just open up a DAW and produce a release for Crosstown Rebels without having put in the endless hours of hard work and pain?

The key for me is to gain some sort of avenue to express myself. The tool (DAW) you use is up to you. I'm on Logic at the moment, but my biggest quest is to make music. I am now learning the piano, not because I deem this the "best" way, but because I believe this instrument will help me bridge the gap between myself and the sounds I want to make.

The goal is to make music. We can make it as scientific as we want, (and this depends on what context we are talking) but at the end of the day music is music. It has brought us together. Let us not make it a divider.

Lastly, I see no reason why taking a course is a bad idea. How would expanding your skill set and knowledge be of hinderance to your development?

An inspiring and informative article

Impressively good read and very inspirational. The kicks are challenging as I can tell in the final product but it sounds reasonably good for a beginner producer.

Before enrolling into an online lesson, it's important that you order some dvd tutorials and master the basics. Once you know the basics, you will explode with creativity when you do the online lessons as you will be merely polishing up your technique.

Online lessons work if you have prior experience. Hence youtube and read as much as you can online before diving in.

PointBlank has solid tutors with huge experience in training.

Best music production article so far this year.