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| #0 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 13:51
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| #1 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 19:07 Interesting article, but one thing I felt when reading it is that we’ve been here before. From about 1990/91 onwards, Berlin was the capital of techno worldwide. Sure, all the people who were making the great music – May, Hood, Craig, Baxter, UR, Mills etc etc - were from the States, but Germany and in particular Berlin was their bread and butter, the place that launched their DJ careers in Europe. Loads of these guys were used to playing in bars and clubs in Detroit for 50 dollars or so, and then suddenly, they found themselves playing for thousands and to thousands. Berlin was the springboard, the beachhead if you will – we might as well use military analogies, seeing as we are talking about Mills and Mad Mike - for their assault on European cluband. Tresor was the label for these artists and Hardwax, which is celebrating 15 years in business this year – was the shop. There was even a compilation of US techno released on Tresor called ‘Detroit/Berlin: The Techno Alliance’ in the mid-90s, which seemed to formalise the relationship. If you look beyond the media froth - and I assume that the UK media is being refered to in this piece: you’d be hard stretched to find an article about John Digweed in De:Bug - people like Mills, May and Craig were and still are DJ superstars, earning huge fees for their services.
By the late 90s, the situation had changed: UK and European producers had caught up and US techno was no longer in vogue. This is especially ironic, as the current wave of minimalism was directly influenced (some would say it merely ripped off the first wave) by the US variant. Without trying to sound disingenuous, I’m sure that in another ten years time, we’ll be reading more pieces hailing Germany as the capital of electronic/techno music. The more things change, the more they stay the same…
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| #2 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 19:30 (Edited: 26 Jun 07 19:49) Heh...when I was writing this piece I stopped at various points and thought: "what would Richard have to say about this", mainly cos you're coming at stuff from a different perspective to me as someone who's been around a little longer.
Firstly you're right that my comments about the media were very UK centric on this btw, because I think the interesting change is that the audience for those mags, UK and Irish dance fans, now like German dance music and "minimal" more than ever before.
But I do think across Europe it seems to be the sound of choice at the moment.
I mean, I was aware of Berlin's long history of techno, but I guess what I'm suggesting is different now from your examples is that Germany is the centre of dance now not JUST to diehard techno fans.
In a way "techno purism" itself has actually become more populist and sort of "trendy" (for better or worse). Or perhaps you'd argue it's just a watered down version of techno or a watered down version of minimal. But that's another issue.
My point is precisely the above though, that purist and minimal ideas that took root from really venerated labels like Perlon etc have now come to represent populist house and techno in a bigger way than ever before.
Of course, as you say, there are plenty of those "legend" DJs left around, but I don't think it's too off base to point out how many new venue filling DJs have emerged in recent years. I mean, practically every sector of dance has seen new players emerge post 2002 or so, whether it's the people behind the decks or the people selling the records/mp3s.
So I do think there are changes to note. Even if this isn't the first time Berlin has been the centre of things, it is certainly different this time. As you say yourself, back then the US was producing the music, have so many German labels ever been so dominant before, as they are now?
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| #3 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 20:01 You're right that it has become populist, but I still think that the purists (they know who they are) balk at a lot of what is called 'sunshine minimalism'. as to the point about german labels being dominant now, if you look back to the mid to late 90s, German labels did rule the roost - Tresor, Basic Channel/ Chain Reaction - the latter two being the most influential techno label for what is now called minimal music, even Poker Flat with Steve Bug's 'Other Day' album was doing serious business, as was Kompakt by 2000. There were really big UK/US techno labels too - Axis, Downwards, the whole Birmingham sound to give just a few examples - but minimal had been bubbling under for years in Germany. it was only when the media from abroad, mainly the uk, got hold of it that it became trendy and popular, which is kind of inevitable and, without sounding like a purist, a bit sad. Anyway, Berlin is all about house music these days, or so we're told to believe 
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| #4 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 20:35 Are we not looking into this a bit too much chaps. Listen, whatever it is at the moment it's in very good health that's for sure. There are so many good tracks being made at the moment that most DJ's set's are never, ever the same and will only occasionally feature that 'hit' track that people recognize. Also we are losing tracks every week simply due to an overload of great music being made by many people. Sebo K and Efdemin are not really doing anything out the ordinary either. They are just blending more housier tracks into their sets and mixing it up a little. Tis the way it should be unless you want to hear 4 hours of beeps, snicks and clicks over a solitary bass drum. Is also very interesting to observe how many times 'Contemplation' by Josh One is now being played out after Sebo's  Podcast. Trends and times chaps. Trends and times.
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| #5 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 20:58 "Anyway, Berlin is all about house music these days, or so we're told to believe " Well, I did mention that also, a good few times! I disagree that it's sad minimal and German techno aesthetics are really popular, I think it's great to be honest, if more people are hearing good dance music. But I agree with Jamie, I just felt with this piece it was important to get the semantics out of the way early but I do agree that the music is what matters. For the next columns I'm going to be concentrating more on shedding light on new stuff I like, I just don't think for a first column I could just start talking right now, eg deep house in Berlin and ignore the last few years. As for "looking into it a bit much", well that's what I was paid to do I guess! Thanks for checking the piece out
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| #6 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 21:08 i just like the photo
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| #7 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 21:09 I drew that.
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| #8 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 21:11 (Edited: 26 Jun 07 21:26) quote:
The more things change, the more they stay the same…
The difference between then and now is that the prime movers these days are German (or Chilean), whereas back in the day the were American imports. Most of the stuff on Tresor is by American artists, who as Richard says, made their name and rep in Germany. But now the artists who are huge, like really huge, in Europe mostly have German names. It's not like we've been in this situation before at all - obv. people who shaped the early German minimal stuff like Basic Channel & Hardwax had respect but they were never in the "star" situation where they were playing big events and clubs around Europe every weekend like Villalobos does now. German DJs has become overground now, and this is the first time. Like Dandy Jack said in his interview: "Before Tiesto was the big star, but now Ricardo is the big star. It’s changing. In Italy, which has a stronger disco and house tradition, before Ricardo was just playing Milan, now he is playing Rimini. To all these fancy Italian girls and boys! That’s a huge change. When I was going to Italy fifteen years ago, minimal or techno didn’t exist." This is something different.
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| #9 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 21:20 I agree. When Die Toten Hosen released 'Never Mind the Hosen, Here's Die Roten Rosen' they were astounded at it's success throughout the whole of Europe.
I won't mention Big Balls and the Great White Idiot.
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| #10 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 21:36 this was interesting the column and the words here made the whole package
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| #11 / Tue, 26 Jun 07 23:27 my naivety of minimal is getting lesser.. sebo k podcast took care of the rest 
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| #12 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 00:03 quote:
Posted by backlashing
"Anyway, Berlin is all about house music these days, or so we're told to believe"
Well, I did mention that also, a good few times! I disagree that it's sad minimal and German techno aesthetics are really popular, I think it's great to be honest, if more people are hearing good dance music.
I know you did, I was just taking the piss a bit, a tangental reference to your piece and the reference to the media etc. what i mean by sad is sad how the (UK) media picked up on it after years of ignoring it. I remember begging the editors of certain magazines to write features about all of the great stuff that was coming out of germany in 2000/2001, but it fell on deaf ears. Now that it's considered hip, they can't wait to comissionn stuff on this sound... that's sad..
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| #13 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 00:09 quote:
Posted by jeremy_a
German DJs has become overground now, and this is the first time.
not true... sven vath, dj dag and mark spoon (jam & spoon) were huge megastars in Germany and all over continental Europe in the mid-90s. Spoon and Dag had top 10 hits all over Europe and as far as I can recollect, Dag even had a number one. Their videos were all over MTV Europe and they were proper pop stars, much more popular than Hawtin or Villalobos will ever be, but at the same time, Vath had his Omen residency and was playing seriously underground techno and trance. This was ten plus years ago, when it was much more difficult to get to number one because music sales were huge. I remember (just about!) going to see Dag, Spoon and Marusha play at the Zurich Love Parade in 94(I think!) and they were playing to about 30,000 people. Mental alltogether - beat that, mr clickety clack!
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| #14 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 01:07 Oh yes, "told to believe".
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| #15 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 01:35 Richard, true enough, but I think you're missing the point of my comment. The article (and my comment) is refering to the rise of minimal techno, not trance or Vath-style Frankfurt stuff. The column is not about whether minimal is a new thing – it is plainly not – but it's about how minimal has gotten big. That is a new development. It’s not simply a recycling of what happened in the nineties.
This year’s gala event at Sonar was Zip, Villalobos, Luciano, Melchior, Von Oswald and Monolake all lined up in front of 1000’s of people. It’s simply a fact that there has been a changing of the guard, and that’s worth talking about. Whether or not other genres have come and gone is irrelevant.
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| #16 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 01:47 i hate the over-analyzation of music!
you people think waaaaay too much about this
music is music... you are the ones to decide if you like it or not... not the press... not some trendy website
i like your writing dude... but you should really invest it in something more useful
we don't need another Philip Shelbourne
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| #17 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 02:03 Jeremy, wihtout nitpicking, the commetn had nothing to do with the style of the music per se, just replying to the quote I highlighted:
'German DJs has become overground now, and this is the first time.' which is, be it trance, techno or minimal, still incorrect... i think it's great that there has been a 'changing of the guard', i just wish some of the music the 'new guard' made was a bit more inspirational...
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| #18 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 02:11 quote:
Posted by miguelcolmenares
i hate the over-analyzation of music!
overanalysation? i think this is an intelligent, informed discussion about dance music. how can you have a beef with that?
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| #19 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 04:27 (Edited: 27 Jun 07 04:35) quote:
Posted by miguelcolmenares
i hate the over-analyzation of music!
you people think waaaaay too much about this
music is music... you are the ones to decide if you like it or not... not the press... not some trendy website
i like your writing dude... but you should really invest it in something more useful
we don't need another Philip Shelbourne
I agree. Way to much thinking over a genre that people could care less about, why don't we try to look beyond dance music and into the future. In my opinion, there is too much generic stuff out there it's hardrto distinguish yourself from the flock. I admire Kieran Hebden, Robert Henke, Ron Brown and Sean Booth because they were ahead of their time. It's sad that in a website were there are so many music lovers, the focal point is always the M-word. There are so many interesting people doing experimental music that will probably influence the next generation of music hipsters. In a time were minimal techno has taken over most of the industry, ' Animal Collective', 'Panda Bear', Dan Snaith and Chris Horne are illuminating purists with an alternative view of dance music.
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| #20 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 09:12 it's a dance music website, those artists have little or nothing to do with dance music.
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| #21 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 11:22 It'd be a bit difficult to look into the future without having an awareness of the present do you not think? Sure minimal house and techno are talked about alot on this website, because the people here like that kind of music. If yo don't like it i'm sure there's websites out there that cater to your tastes.
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| #22 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 11:41 the article was just... bland
nothing we haven't heard a hundred times before to say the least
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| ~ Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ~ |
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| #23 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 12:09 Minimal is an overused techno tag of 05/06. I agree there has been a move towards Deep House (the genre-of-the-moment) along the dixon/schwarz/sebok/chandler/jamiejones axis. But is dance returning to the more broad House Music title? Is it possible to break through the morillo/solvieg/morales/dimitri type names that come to mind when you hear the word House?
I hope so because I'm sick of hearing about the 'M word'.
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| #24 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 12:23 quote:
Posted by J.Dough
Minimal is an overused techno tag of 05/06. I agree there has been a move towards Deep House (the genre-of-the-moment) along the dixon/schwarz/sebok/chandler/jamiejones axis. But is dance returning to the more broad House Music title? Is it possible to break through the morillo/solvieg/morales/dimitri type names that come to mind when you hear the word House?
I hope so because I'm sick of hearing about the 'M word'.
not really.. i take the whole 'deep house' scene as an over-exaggerated attempt not to be 'm---' and to cunningly dodge the 'imminent subsequent backlash(tm) as for the music itself it's the same 'german' aesthetic, slightly different form, but generally the same ideas... even most of today's 'clickier' minimal techno artists had housier periods a few years back.. anyone remembers Ricardo's - 'Easy Lee'? for example?
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| #25 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 12:28 It's not really the same sound, not least since plenty of it is by US artists now. Dennis Ferrer, Tiger Stripes etc...
Tho I do agree the roots of minimal are in house.
Also Villalobos's housey period? How about right now! His new single is utterly housey as was the Beck remix.
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| #26 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 12:37 quote:
Posted by backlashing
Also Villalobos's housey period? How about right now! His new single is utterly housey as was the Beck remix.
exactly, this new 'deep house' is not minimal only because the artists don't like to call it minimal because of the above mentioned reasons  try just to imagine the ubercoolische Berlin hypesters spreading the word for a party "heh, shhhh.. we're organizing this party tomorrow, and guess what... it's not minimal but (dramatic pause) it's deep house and tech-house, minimal is noot cool anymore, this is totally new and different *wink*"
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| #27 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 12:39 yes but, how do you explain them playing artists like Dennis Ferrer/Jerome Sydenham/Tiger Stripes that are distributed from the US and on labels that most certainly are never minimal or never claimed to be?
Isn't this new and different?
Seems that way.
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| #28 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 13:28 Don’t know what the hype is on about M. Minimal, techno is rooted from house, credit to the belleville three.
Connect the dots........chicago, detroit, german.
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| #29 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 15:34 I enjoyed the read, well done Ronan!
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| #30 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 15:52 is mml still around ?
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| #31 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 18:30 quote:
Posted by backlashing
it's a dance music website, those artists have little or nothing to do with dance music.
it's a dance music website? Isn't Robert Henke, Caribou and Autechre big influences in dance music? If not, then color me lost...
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| #32 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 18:32 you said it.
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| #33 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 18:36
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| #34 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 18:40 listen, you seem to be tooting your own horn with this one. I think most of us have witnessed your ability with dictionary.com, but putting an entire genre or dance music scene into one small and square pigeonhole just makes me sick.
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| #35 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 18:45 yup
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| #36 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 18:55 "listen, you seem to be tooting your own horn with this one. I think most of us have witnessed your ability with dictionary.com, but putting an entire genre or dance music scene into one small and square pigeonhole just makes me sick."
what's the difference between "an entire genre" and "one small and square pigeonhole".
I don't think i'm tooting my horn really, just responding to comments on something I worked on.
I personally don't see why writing an article attempting to make sense of a genre that people have spoken and argued about a lot is sickening.
It sounds a little like you think nobody should ever write about music.
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| #37 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 19:01 interesting read, as always from Ronan ....
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| #38 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 19:15 yeah it was a good article, i was just testing your character
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| #39 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 19:16 did you roll a 20 sided die?
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| #40 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 19:17 im just appauled by the comment of the person who said Robert Henke and Autechre had very little to do with dance music.
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| #41 / Wed, 27 Jun 07 19:18 quote:
Posted by backlashing
did you roll a 20 sided die?
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| #42 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 10:40 Whoa!... Minimal sure can cause a fuss cant it? I like it though, the fuss and the minimal. I think its good that a style of music that shys away from the obvious and overblown sounds (such as the one that constitute electro house, trance and funky house) and focusses on the subtleties of arangement, rhythm and depth (insert wanky chinstroke) has become the sound of choice for the masses. Its a good direction for the scene to get back to a more club oriented sound than one thats going to hit the top 40 week in week out.
It seems everyones got their opinion on what constitutes minimal house. Adam Freeland recently said in an interview on inthemix that minimal house sounds exactly like progressive house did 12 or so years ago. Im not old enough to know what prog house sounded like 12 years ago cause i was still in grade 6 so i cant really comment on that one. But i do know theres alot of quality dance music coming out of Northern Europe at the moment and this is a good thing.
I liked your article Ronan it was well written. I will be keeping an eye out for the next one.
Peace.
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| #43 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 12:33 I guess with Vanegz being in such a 'minimal' house location as Austin, Texas it gives him the perfect opportunity to get out into the clubs and actually hear/see what the current crop of 'minimal' DJ's are actually doing.
Maybe it doesnt.
Ronan, it's a great article and nicely summised about the current state of 'minimal' or whatever we bloody call it, I'd take the amount of responses as indication of a job well done. For someone to respond and mention 'Animal Collective' and 'Panda Bear' on a 'electronic, dance music website' is naive to say the least, if not stupid.
www.wackyshittyletsplay15instrumentsoutoftuneallatonce.com should serve your needs for those two artists perfectly.
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| #44 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 12:43 quote:
Posted by JamieLondon
www.wackyshittyletsplay15instrumentsoutoftuneallatonce.com should serve your needs for those two artists perfectly.
hahaha...bullz-eye! high five
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| #45 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 12:53 I'm glad someone else said that
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| #46 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 18:09 quote:
Posted by Arku_FaxonAdam Freeland recently said in an interview on inthemix that minimal house sounds exactly like progressive house did 12 or so years ago. Im not old enough to know what prog house sounded like 12 years ago cause i was still in grade 6 so i cant really comment on that one.
he couldnt be more correct. its all very clean, safe, and overblown. the sounds are almost exactly the same, lots of druggy farting and whooshing EFX, etc. really, none of these genres (mnml, prog, nor this new "house" stuff that as someone pointed out earlier sounds exactly like mnml but with a different name) has anything to do with house music. as for stuff like mr ferrer and sydenham and chandler outta NYC, check out how long theyve been doing this stuff. you can go back to at least 03 for their overtly techno vibes, and by the sounds of it their primary influence for going that way had nothing to do with anything happening in germany, it had to do with UR and Los Hermanos. tracks like "Jaguar" and "Inspiration" and "Transition" are obvious forrunners of the stuff they did, and now you can hear Carl Craig in what theyre doing way more than anything any german producer is doing. people drawing some of these comparisons make me wonder if they have ears. quote:
But i do know theres alot of quality dance music coming out of Northern Europe at the moment and this is a good thing.
im not sure that mr freeland meant that as a compliment or a backing of the quality of the music tom
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| #47 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 19:27 I once saw tom pipecock have a 40 page argument with frankie bones on discogs.
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| #48 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 19:47 quote:
Posted by backlashing
I once saw tom pipecock have a 40 page argument with frankie bones on discogs.
You def. have no idea of what America is. Do you know Matthew Dear is from Austin? Oh and Lusine too ouch. Idiots, you all die to be here but you are too jealous to admit. Oh and by the way, Richie and Ricardo can go fuck themselves while we are it. Techno began in America, it was American music and a staple back in the 1980's and early 1990's. We might not get Richie Hawtin, Magda, name drop some sucker ass dj, everyweekend but we sure get the education we deserve and to know that this article is a piece of crap. I take back what I said, yeah im an asshole and I quit this fucking website.
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| #49 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 19:51 many of my relatives actually did die on their way to America...during the famine.
they wanted a better life (and some experimental indie)
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| #50 / Thu, 28 Jun 07 19:52 quote:
Posted by backlashing
many of my relatives actually did die on their way to America...during the famine.
they wanted a better life (and some experimental indie)
no wonder you live in a shithole called dublin.
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