Read the RA feature /
2008 in review

My dear sirs.

I feel that I would like to state my few opinions on the year in review. I believe that, overall, it was a good year, with the emergence and re-emergences of some good talent and a number of excellent tracks. However, I felt that this year also brought a lot of superfluous arguments and unwarranted self-importance. I think we should realize in this day and age that the revival or resurgence of ANYTHING is going to have it's promoters and detractors, and this revival of 'deep minimal' (a term I invented for the purpose). We have seen the new talents brashly emerge from the woodwork and old guards man themselves for a second assault at the front. Particularly with the latter, I think it is of no concern as to the type of music played. Look at Francois K and Kevin Saunderson for example. Both former kings of the disco/house era, now playing minimal, electrohouse, hard techno, etc. etc. Both caused an uproar with this change of heart. Both were entitled to play what they please.

Berlin. It's almost become a joke now. It's more a surprise to see a famous German DJ/Producer that DOESN'T live in Berlin or some other upstart who hasn't hacked his/her way through the masses with his/her tonearms wanted to seek their fortune. Will the Berlin bubble burst or continue to inflate? This report hopes it merely assumes a comfortable shape and fluctuates with the times.

The future. Last year, the thought was posted 'All eyes on the Netherlands in 2008?'. Evidently, Berlin has stolen the crown once again. Well, Joris Voorn's Balance CD will soon be released, and it looks already like it will be a genre/era-defining/defying mix. Here's to the rise of world talent!

Here's also to hoping that I end the year, not only with high school triumphed, but at least one club booking. Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead!

PS. Why was I never informed as to Redshape's identity? Naughty, naughty. I guess the joke is lost on the shirt now.

Cheers guys for an excellent read.

By my lights, 2008 was an extraordinary year for dance music, solely because of the dubstep/techno crossover.(I recommend "Stepno" as a name for this style.) I'm glad that music has bloomed for you this year as it has for me, Philip.

Peter, I do have to applaud what felt to me to be a purer advocacy of the music you discussed. For the other two, it seemed like questions as to the role of the critic got in the way a bit. Isn't it also crucial to take a step back from that slightly.

Even though the audience for underground dance music is huge, there are still relatively few to sort out the tasty from the dreadful for us. If the Ost Ton stuff is amazing, isn't it much more important to say so than to fret about not wanting to talk about something because it's a project that will always be around?

After all, isn't that undifferentiated lust for the new exactly what gives us perpetual next big thing movements populated with a sea of dreck releases?

Can't wait to hear the rest of the dialogue. Hope it's published without too much delay.

People: go listen to Tense by Scuba (released right at the death of 2008) if you want to hear everything that was/is good about electronic dance music last year/right now. For me, the dubstep/techno crossover is by far the most fertile territory in current dancefloor culture and this little number is the cream of the crop. That's all I've got to say!

Another vote of confidence to Skull Disco and dubstep/techno in general. That subgenre aside, i've never before witnessed a year where the traditional bread-and-butter genres of club electronic music have been so mediocre (not weak though, just mediocre - blame dubfire if you want )

Looking forward to seeing dubstep make a bend in the four-to-the-floor rhythmic dominance over the dancefloors (since the death od D'n'B) in 2009. That, and more of the same delicious bass!

interesting presentation of a year end review.
the opening paragraphs in phil's letter #4 had me laughing.
...however you look at 2008 in electronic music, it had surely kept the enthusiests busy. negative or positive, gracious or jaded- everyone threw their opinions down (blogs helped)...and there has always been this w/ the 'underground' or 'whatever you want to call it dance' culture. opinions are valued with it.(+/-) there were brilliant records. there were shite records. everything and nothing will change in 2009.

and whats with 'fertile' being thrown around so much lately?...buzz words.

Great read with some good points coming from all sides. I do have to agree with Peter's comments about people having unrealistic expectations of innovation from house and techno. There's only far it can move and change within the confines of formula.

i dunno , it kinda feels like their needs to be some consensus, but does their ?, if i like agnes and sherburne doesn't than what's the big deal, we don't have to come some grand conclusion of dance music in 2008 do we ? plus it's 2009

I wouldn't call 'fertile' a buzz word, svenone. Far from it. Fertility is a quality/state which has a great deal of significance to those of us who care about the development of club music (which has a tendency, as everyone knows, to turn in on itself and repeat its own gestures mindlessly - m_nus of the last few years being a paradigm example). Yes, the word has been used a lot lately, but that's because fertility is an important notion when one is examining the condition of a 'scene' or 'scenes'. Would you also say that 'quality' is a buzz-word? Or 'health'? Or 'progress'? I hope not...

I'd suggest that throwaway comments like "everything and nothing will change in 2009" have more of a 'buzzy' quality than words/concepts like 'fertility'. Sorry.

2008 was indeed no better, nor worse, than any of the preceding years. What changed was what's been happening for a while now: electronic music becomes ever more 'overground'(as opposed to underground, obviously). At the same time, the amount of music bloggers is growing exponentially. The result is that by the time a record sees it's official release, it's already been blogged to death and has appeared in 1000 downloadable Villalobos, Luciano or Hawtin sets.

If the recent overkill of events and releases within my favourite genres had any positive outcome on me personally, it would be that I started to look back instead of forwards in my crates and rediscovered some proper classic gems; nice

Have any of you even read the Big Beat Manifesto recently???

a fine retort max, a fair retort.
the throwaway was a throwaway, but it was the quickest way for me to sum up how each year has new trends, patterns and faces, but the formula for the culture pretty much stays the same...aside from bogus closing times, clubs shutting down and the sad distribution story, etc. so wow, maybe more big changes than i thought.

Does anyone else wake up in a cold sweat having dreamt (electronic)/(dance) has gone the way of Prog rock in the late 70s i.e. become so esoteric, expansive and genre obsessed it has failed to connect with a new audience?

I feel I'm doing quite well musically until I hit this kind of article and have to spend hours traveling to distant and bizarre corners of the internet just so I can half understand whats going on. Maybe I'm just to young (likely), to stupid (probable) or maybe the magnitude of the task of becoming a 'well rounded' listener is just to bloody time consuming for someone who still needs to leave a few hours in the day to go to see a DJ (who typically shrug when you ask them to play anything you've seen here).

At any rate everything that was recommended in the article was excellent. Perhaps the "difficulties" electronic music is facing are only really apparent to those who's appetite for audio is so insatiable that having consumed all that is available they are sitting on the frontiers of dance staring into the abyss. For the amateur a good track is only one blog visit away (RA included) and hell in my book that leaves the state of affairs in pretty damn good shape.

"Perhaps the "difficulties" electronic music is facing are only really apparent to those who's appetite for audio is so insatiable that having consumed all that is available they are sitting on the frontiers of dance staring into the abyss."

couldn't put it better myself. Yes there are problems with downloading - major problems that need to be addressed. But some of the often ridiculous nitpicking over what is deep and what isn't that is discussed in the article just seems like a few very passionate but very detached writers. What exactly do they want house to do? This year has seen the lies of Agnes, Dietz, Fix, Seuil and even Loco Dice both make and spin tunes that have given house music a pretty damn good showing. It may not satisfy philosophising sages, but judging by some of the events I've been to in 2008, it keeps many people smiling till sunrise. And yes, they do know about music. One last point, at Eastern Electrics last year Chloe was playing rolling chunky techno and house to a rammed room. In the room next door, of equal size, Appleblim was playing to what looked like a bunch of mates. It was a sorry sight. Who really cares what is 'deep' and what isn't? Most people want to go out, dance (it what this music was made for for god's sake!) and have a good time. If you went to the right clubs to see the right DJs, house had a storming year.

I just wonder how many readers can truly relate to the over the top pigeon holing appeared above.

if you actually read the piece, a hard ask I know, you'd see that a lot of it what was written was actually attacking pigeonholing...

and that not one of the three people said 2008 was an unmitigated bad year for the music.

but you know reading takes time, commenting is easy.

Richard: Was that the official list or your list?

Also:

"Mark E
RA.106 was two drunken Frenchman singing, crooning, playing live, in the rain and making fun of minimal. What's not to love?"

I believe that was meant to be Noze.

For me, 2008 was another painfully difficult year for electronic/dance music. However, I was to find rays of hope for a culture that is proud to say "Fuck The Mainstream".

The source of some pain falls into the racial divide. The continued division takes place along the lines of house music and techno music. Blacks stand tall with house music as supported by artists and labels from NY, Detroit, Chicago and parts of Germany and the UK. Whites stand shoulder and shoulder listening to tracks from Plus 8, Spectral, Mobilee, Get Physical, Soma and so on.

Joy arose from producers such as KDJ, Dennis Ferrer, Jerome Syndeham, Irfan...then labels such as Still Music and Objectivity that struck fear into the hearts of everyone by blurring the lines between house, disco and techno. Tracks such as "Son of Raw" which was remixed by Loco Dice that satisfied everyone and every dancefloor.

What is the problem? What is the issue? Why is he complaining about race? Say something new other than the race card?

Fine. I will step back and offer a different argument in the face of idiots and blindness.

The electronic music dance culture is dying because there is no more individuality from producers, to DJs, to clubs and so on. There has developed a strong sense of "follow the crowd" alive and killing the electronic dance music culture. The same thing that murdered hip-hop.

With the rise of technology, those who desire "to be" part of the "in-crowd" can do so with only $1500.00. That money can get you Logic, a keyboard and a gallon of Jack Daniels Whiskey....add water....presto....you are now a "instant producer". No label needed. Grab a couple plug-ins from a few torrent sites...presto...you are the talk of the neighborhood. Just get the mp3's out to whoever you can. Just e-mail those tracks out to every label from Detroit to Berlin to Australia.

With the rise of technology, a person having no talent, no love, no passion, no understanding of history, can copycat any track done by any artist from C2 to Hawtin to Move D to Pacou to Adam Beyer. No concern for mastering. No concern for sound. Just....."I want to be like..."

Is the passion there? Is the love there? Do you know the history of this music we love?

This is where the pain is for me. This is where the pain is for Detroit. The city of innovators fighting a bunch of copycats. Copycats destroyed and embarrassed. Copycats giving birth to a "new sound". A "new sound" with no vision. A "new sound" with no soul. A "new sound" with no roots. A "new sound" able to lockdown huge amounts of money for media and advertising sponsors simply because a group of kids decided to make a profit and then corner a market.....in the month of May.

Still, I stand with Detroit. I stand with the underground. I stand with producers. I stand with DJs. I stand in the shadows, laughing at those who have no individuality giving praise to a cube...FUCK THE MAINSTREAM.

I stand, surrounded with my dear friends Arthur Oskan, Shamus Coghlan, Vergel Evans, Dimitri Pike, Strand, Carl Craig, Rick Wilhite, Scott Grooves, Delano Smith, TJ, Jerome Derradji, Gerald Mitchell, Mike Banks and so on who still focus on artistry over profits. Focus on pulling sound from deep within their soul and releasing emotions into the gear....for everyone to hear their joy and understand their pain.

To conclude, There was only 1 point of joy for me in 2008.

I sat in a rollerskating rink and revealed to a complete stranger how far electronic dance music has come and where electronic dance music cannot go. To a complete stranger, I showed him that there really can be one music, one love. To a complete stranger, I showed him that Detroit does everything for the love of the music.

I welcome 2009 and a stop to "pigeonholing"

The Butcher
www.detroitfightclub313.com
TOGETHER....WE CAN SAVE THE WORLD FROM BAD MUSIC.....

Put your hands up for Detroit...

quote:

---

Posted by backlashingbut you know reading takes time, commenting is easy.

---

it's not often that i agree with you ronan, but well put sir.

You 3 have really got much time in 2008...

""Techno indoctrinates us. It is the only possible world, and therefore it is the best possible world"" thets all that matters to me xx

"And style is important: AC/DC, Nirvana, Theo Parrish—they all have their own inimitable style. Interestingly, Lawrence (and Dial) did, but increasingly they're just polishing the bonnet of Detroit with black Hanseatic gloss."


eeeerhhh....what exactly is "black hanseatic gloss"???

question..

was peter's mention of SSGs a diss to them?

I really like the mnmlssgs blog.

quote:

---

Posted by SirCamels
question..

was peter's mention of SSGs a diss to them?

I really like the mnmlssgs blog.

---

pete is one of ssgs, so it was most certainly not a diss!

thanks for the support.

cosign the Butcher's whole post. i wonder why didn't let me get in on this one?

"I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive / 'I've seen it all, I was here first'"

This Nirvana lyric kept popping up in my head while reading this. It's good to see that even the seasoned pros (bloggers, DJs, etc.) can admit to feeling overwhelmed and unsure of what it's all supposed to "mean."

Interesting discourse on the state of our beloved "techno music." It's good to pull our heads out and take a look at the broader picture. People are so caught up in minute details and unwritten "rules" that they lose all the joy that brought them to this music in the first place. Do we really need all this in-fighting when there are bigger, more obvious threats to good taste out there? (Try living in the bowels of America, where butt rock and geriatric arena bands are the main draw.)

If you're feeling bored of electronic/dance music, just stop listening. Take a break. Listen to old pop songs. Listen to classical. Jazz. Norwegian death metal. Whatever. Cleanse your palate. Then come back. It will sound a lot better. It's just music, people, enjoy it!

God, I sound like a fucking hippie. I'm going to bed.

"What if we differentiated musical genres not based on tempo and beat structure but on other, more difficult to define parameters?"

i mean, that is exactly what house and techno ARE to me. 99% of the records they called "house" records in this article i wouldn't consider to be house. but at the same time, i bought a ton of disco and jazz records this year that without question ARE house. the same goes for techno. i bought more Tangerine Dream records this year than i did "techno" records as defined by these guys. to be honest, i never even heard of at least half of the producers and labels they mentioned. i just keep listening to those musics that have the mood and feeling of house and techno, many times those are wildly divergent in tempo, beat pattern, and texture.

'Oslo is as much '08 as Magda's Dancing Machine was perfectly '06.... and, I have to say, I think the trancing proggy minimal of Eulberg, Holden and Trentemøller were perfectly '05. (Thank God that played itself out.)'

True enough, but I'll take trancing proggy minimal over flat pseudo house any day.

As a restorative to the lack of faith in music criticism I suggest reading Alex Ross's ceaselessly engaging 'The Rest is Noise' (www.therestisnoise.com). In it he provides an interesting quote from Emperor Franz Joseph on Mahler: 'Is music such a serious business? I always thought it was meant to make people happy.'

@ TheButcher: why was it necessary to bring up the racial issue again? I'm white and I'm sick of people like YOU pigeonholing me into some racial musical divide. The simple fact is, I love Detroit techno and for instance Dutch spinoffs such as the label Delsin. But apparently due to my skin colour I'm doomed to stand shoulder to shoulder listening to 'white techno'. What kind of crap is that?

Btw, Son of Raw was very much 2007.

I agree with you on almost all points, but that first one really is something that annoys the hell out of me.

Great to see this kind of discourse on Resident Advisor. There were some really interesting points raised, but if you can indulge me the time, I’d like to add a few of mine:

I was happy that Peter mentioned Newworldaquarium: for me these guys along with Aroy Dee, Delta Funktionen and the Delsin/Ann Aimee labels released some of the best electronic music in 2008 - a story that was largely ignored, so thanks for mentioning one of them.

I also felt that the discussion largely missed out on/glossed over the great house releases from Detroit last year - from producers like Xdb, Patrice Scott, Keith Worthy, Delano Smith, Mike Huckaby, etc (I know Peter mentioned Omar S). To my ears at least, this great electronic music with soul and depth - play any of these records next to the European stuff and it quickly becomes clear ( to me - I’m sure you will disagree) the difference in production standards etc.

As regards this claims: “Words like "honesty" and "integrity" and "meaning" and "respect" seemed meaningless themselves, especially when used to describe Berghain or Hard Wax artists with utter reverence”…
I would disagree. I think that these adjectives are often used to describe these artists because for me (and for a small but loyal following) they represent an alternative to the glut of poorly produced, un-mastered, un-lovingly produced house and techno in circulation. Listen to records by Dettmann, Klock, Sleeparchive, Wax, Equalized, Workshop, Sandwell District etc etc – all of these acts/labels have carved out a distinctive sound while also referencing house and techno’s rich heritage. All of them release on anonymous looking hand-stamped vinyl in an effort to get away from the current ‘Cube’—fuelled marketing tendency that a lot of contemporary techno has fallen victim to and to merely present the music as is. As such, to my ears at least, they are artists with integrity. They deserve my respect as does Hardwax the record store, which is celebrating 16 years in business and doing more business than ever. As far as I am concerned, these labels and Hardwax, Berghain etc represent a lot (but not all) about what I loved about techno last year.

I also take issue with Philip’s claim that : “Virtually everyone agreed that tracks like "Orbitalife," "Diva" and "Trompeta" worked.”
No DJ I know or respect would have played any of these tracks, so I would disagree with the ‘virtually everyone’ claim – a bit of a generalisation surely?

Also, was there really a critical consensus? For example, most of the records listed in this piece wouldn’t have made it into my list or those of say ISM or say LWE. I’d prefer if there wasn’t a consensus - if there was surely it would stifle the discourse that you guys all (rightly) say is necessary?

Phil, regarding labels - Spectral released 2 great albums last year – james t cotton’s and osborne’s - I’d say it was a pretty good year for them. Also, check a lot of the recent Planet Mu back catalogue (2006/2007) if you liked what you heard this year.


Ronan, the two Marcels have only been producing for a few years and only in the last year have really impressed (me) with their productions - surely it’s not a scene that has gone on forever, but has slowly and gradually evolved? The club they play in is only a few years old….

Ideas sometimes need their inverses to be effective. Or, rather, an underground without a mainstream is like a hero without a villain. -
Why? I could very happily imagine a world without Jonny D and Oslo and where Patrice Scott etc are given the kind of attention the new European producers receive!


Finally, whoever said Ostgut’s output was based on functionality needs to listen to the Prosumer and Shed albums.

Anyway, good to read this discussion, more of this please RA…

quote:

---

Posted by backlashing

but you know reading takes time, commenting is easy.

---

yea Reading takes time when Is only reflection of some people egoes and patronizing opinons and own interests , reading doesnt take time when a piece is good , it just flows..

gosh guys i wonder who red the whole feature without yawning...i really wonder who actually red the whole feature?
sorry but this is just wa waist of cyberspace cant believe even accepted such a long boring and draining feature
i guess yes ,you guys have way to much time and you think way too much in a scene that is pretty much about going out having a great time and listening to quality music and dance to it ...this is not science or philosophy , this is dance music, not even classical music critics do this to their scene.

in later years youd complain about how crap the scene was how trance and progresive sucked , how electro house was awful , now we have great music , great house , good techno , good djs... maybe not the most innovative but isnt it normal for the nex generation to get inspired by the old one ? hasnt been so much already done ?

if you want innovative breaktrough music then why dont you do it youself !

arent you all Journalists-DJs producers ?
i think thats the whole point of your articles guys..

ok kill me i dont really mind ,i just think this feature feels like 3 guys wanking off together..

enjoy good music while it last.

Hey Richard,

I said "Ideas sometimes need their inverses to be effective. Or, rather, an underground without a mainstream is like a hero without a villain. -"

And you said: "Why? I could very happily imagine a world without Jonny D and Oslo and where Patrice Scott etc are given the kind of attention the new European producers receive!"

I'll believe people can imagine a world without the artists they dislike when they are able to discuss artists they like without negative comparisons...until then I think my statement holds true.

If people feel an artist is making truly original and unique music then it's a bit of an insult to then resort to saying "and he isn't like this music I think is shit either", I mean that's pretty sad.

richard brophy : word. all said.

quote:

---

Posted by backlashing
I'll believe people can imagine a world without the artists they dislike when they are able to discuss artists they like without negative comparisons...until then I think my statement holds true.

If people feel an artist is making truly original and unique music then it's a bit of an insult to then resort to saying "and he isn't like this music I think is shit either", I mean that's pretty sad.

---

Of course there’s no need to praise an artist you like by prefixing it with one’s dislike of another artist.

However, if you really ‘believe people can imagine a world without the artists they dislike when they are able to discuss artists they like without negative comparisons’, why then is there still a need for a villain vs hero scenario as per your original quote? Are you not contradicting yourself a bit here?!!

There isn't a need for that scenario. That's exactly my point. I never said there was a need for it. In fact, I would like for it to stop. I am glad we seem to agree!

Finally, we agree! Except I prefer Patrice Scott to Johnny D (doh, there I did it again - trying to erase him from my mind!)

Do you like Patrice as well - or are you more of a Jonny man at heart?

Trying to work out if "Jonny man" is some sort of insult! Seriously though I like Patrice Scott and Keith Worthy a lot....

quote:

---

Posted by backlashing
Trying to work out if "Jonny man" is some sort of insult! Seriously though I like Patrice Scott and Keith Worthy a lot....

---

Nah, it’s only a joke, don’t mind me… scott and worthy are super – have you heard the recent Delano smith on third ear? A really great record…

quote:

---

Posted by RichardBrophy

quote:

---

Posted by backlashing
Trying to work out if "Jonny man" is some sort of insult! Seriously though I like Patrice Scott and Keith Worthy a lot....

---

Nah, it’s only a joke, don’t mind me… scott and worthy are super – have you heard the recent Delano smith on third ear? A really great record…

---

that record is pure class.

quote:

---

Posted by Flamman
@ TheButcher: why was it necessary to bring up the racial issue again? I'm white and I'm sick of people like YOU pigeonholing me into some racial musical divide. The simple fact is, I love Detroit techno and for instance Dutch spinoffs such as the label Delsin. But apparently due to my skin colour I'm doomed to stand shoulder to shoulder listening to 'white techno'. What kind of crap is that?

Btw, Son of Raw was very much 2007.

I agree with you on almost all points, but that first one really is something that annoys the hell out of me.

---

Thank you for your comments and support along with Pipecock and Henry.

I can only comment on what I know and have experienced. I hit local parties here in Detroit with Keith Worthy, Norm Talley, Delano Smith, Mike Grant and so on. Blacks generally tend to run in the house music, deep house music crowd. On the other hand, the techno headbangers (white people) who come out to hear me play, I never see at a house music party. That is why, back in the day, Detroit DJs had to have house and techno in the crates for EVERY party because we rocked out to everything.

The constant that will never change in our culture is that the DJ can break through the racial divide, racial lines. How? The DJ has to develop his own individuality and understand how to WALK the line between house and techno..... and BRING people together whether black, white, gay or straight.

DJ's like Charles Webster, Oslaunde, Glen Underground, Boo Williams, Jeff Mills, Alan Oldham, Trus'me, Kerri Chandler, Mark Flash, KDJ, James Pennington aka Suburban Knight and so on. DJ's with their own individuality, who are solid in knowledge of house, jazz, tribal and techno that can bring together everyone. I have experienced it. I know it.

Since you are white and like house, deep house and really could careless about race, then you are an exceptional case. You have established your own INDIVIDUALITY and have decided what you like. If you ever hit tha D, you can run with me to house and techno parties all DEMF weekend. Get some rollerskates too....lol.

The conflict between race and individuality continues in the electronic dance music culture. I had separated the two issues in the first post in an effort to convey to readers that the one solution to BOTH problems is still one music, one love.

It is deep in a person's heart but then lost when a person simply decides to "follow the crowd".

The Butcher
www.detroitfightclub313.com
BRINGING ONE AT A TIME FROM THE DARKSIDE............

Thanks for the positive response If ever I get to go to the 313, you can be sure I'll try & look you guys up!

PS: I broke my arm rollerskating. Scary little things

Yeah just picked that up last night actually Richard, really good sound from that....

Techno music. Here are the first names that spring to mind. Model 500. Carl Craig. Jeff Mills. Nightmares On Wax. Derrick May. Frankie Knuckles. All originators of the sound now apparently called 'white techno'. All black guys. Yes, they had influence on Detroit (obviously) but who were the influences for Warp? Rephlex? Plus 8? These guys.

Isn't house (and, by extension, techno) supposed to be 'a universal language, spoken and understood by all (people)', Jew, Gentile, black man, white?

The state has no place in the bedrooms and churches of the nation, and the color of a person's skin has no place in their listening habits or allowances.

quote:

---

Posted by Flamman
PS: I broke my arm rollerskating. Scary little things

---

I did too! Not the best thing...

One exception to the rule could be Underground Resistance, who claimed to take their inspiration from the black power struggles. However, protest music can be taken as being inspired from ALL struggles, regardless of color. To quote Afrika Bambaataa, talking about hip hop:

How you act, walk, look and talk is all part of Hip Hop culture. And the music is colorless. Hip Hop music is made from black, brown, yellow, red and white.

Hip hop begat electro begat techno.

i am sorry butcher but this is the biggest bullshit i have read in a while.

u are from detroit? u go out there? great - make an statement about the situation in detroit. but dont generalise this with what happens in the world around detroit. around america.

you are judging a universal thing like house and techno by some local experience!

you sound like george w. bush but should sound like barrack obama. u want to be open minded but u are so closed!

if u wanna argue as deep as u want to - be precise! understand things and dont mix stuff together. dont generalize things just because in your clubs u dont see certains things that u want to see. how do u know there is a race issue in house and/or techno in japan? france? great britain? germany? or is house and techno not existend in this countries?

phew.... americans...

quote:

---

Posted by harpomarx42
Techno music. Here are the first names that spring to mind. Model 500. Carl Craig. Jeff Mills. Nightmares On Wax. Derrick May. Frankie Knuckles. All originators of the sound now apparently called 'white techno'. All black guys. Yes, they had influence on Detroit (obviously) but who were the influences for Warp? Rephlex? Plus 8? These guys.

Isn't house (and, by extension, techno) supposed to be 'a universal language, spoken and understood by all (people)', Jew, Gentile, black man, white?

The state has no place in the bedrooms and churches of the nation, and the color of a person's skin has no place in their listening habits or allowances.

---

there's a lot of shit right there. for starters i am not sure how nightmares on wax is (a) techno or (b) influenced warp, considering his first release was on that label. and plus 8 was, in part, a reaction against the dominant detroit sound at the time, i think from memory.

and it's great getting up on your high horse and saying that race etc. doesnt matter, but it is easy for you/me to say that - based on your picture - as you are white, male, and probably middle class too, which makes you about as privileged as you can be. the butcher is perhaps overplaying the issue of race, but sociological factors like this are very real and need to be considered. yes, in a perfect world race/class/ethnicity etc shouldnt influence such matters, but in reality, they do, and we need to be aware of them and think through how they shape how music is made and listened to. to take one sociological examle: for starters to be a DJ, traditionally you have to be able to afford records and plenty of them - which instantly chops out a fair chunk of people. and to be a producer - again, you need expensive software and hardware. of course, pirated music and software now increasing accessibility but hurts the scene in other ways. so just sitting up there from your privileged position and spouting shit about how it should be is complete crap.

quote:

---

Posted by Ofelia
i am sorry butcher but this is the biggest bullshit i have read in a while.

u are from detroit? u go out there? great - make an statement about the situation in detroit. but dont generalise this with what happens in the world around detroit. around america.

you are judging a universal thing like house and techno by some local experience!

you sound like george w. bush but should sound like barrack obama. u want to be open minded but u are so closed!

if u wanna argue as deep as u want to - be precise! understand things and dont mix stuff together. dont generalize things just because in your clubs u dont see certains things that u want to see. how do u know there is a race issue in house and/or techno in japan? france? great britain? germany? or is house and techno not existend in this countries?

phew.... americans...

---

Thank you for your comment.

It is unfortunate that you have taken my comments personally based on your response.

I cannot and will not address your issues point for point.

However, please understand that my post is based on local experience, overseas experience and conversations with other DJs and live PA artists who have performed overseas that desired to relate their experiences with me.

it happens a lot - peoples bodies travel but there minds not.

good luck in the future and in your carrier.

butcher: hmm.it does sound a little strange ...from a european view.it starts with seperating house from techno a.k.a. the "black house community" vs. "the white techno headbangers". there´s just NO way you can generalize that outside from detroit or maybe the states. detroit was just one of the centres of development of a specific style (of course coming from another background than the scene in frankfrut or berlin for example...).UK has had a different development coming from raves, reggaesoundsystems, breakbeats, hardcore, jungle etc....germany had it´s own story with tangerine dream,neu, harmonica, goettsching, kraftwerk, later the scene around tresor or omen (basically in exchange with detroit producers) and so on,italy with cosmic & disco...
right now, there´s just a total mix with elements of basically everything from dub, house to breaks and classic techno.speaking for myself, i could never draw any lines between styles and i was not simply interested in drawing them.. so : no, i can´t agree out of my experince and socialisation. the line between house and techno (and a lot of other influences) maybe is not as clear in other regions of the world. and i don´t know, who tells you what from where or what you experienced outside of the states.but i´d like to.

Thank you everyone for a mostly respectful and interesting discussion so far.

@ Ebbi: ...what can I say? Out of the theoretically infinite number of possible responses, all you have to say about our thoughts is that you didn't like 'em? Your comment is far more self-indulgent than our columns, if you ask me: not only do you sniggeringly gratify yourself by dissing, you're a content free zone.

This is a site dedicated to thinking, talking, and writing about electronic music. You seem hostile to this to the point of wanting to comment about it.

If you have something to say: start a blog, stick your neck out, cop some flack, and enjoy actually trying to engage with something you care about.

As I said in my piece (which I'm sure you didn't read properly):

Cynicism is a particularly cowardly form of superiority.

Sneering is easy; engaging is hard.